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What led to the letdown in Palo Alto?

Irish couldn't deliver. What are some of the reasons? Are they fixable?

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  1. Its fine u wanna go after.Polian, but why not show Todd Light the door, since you want tgree new coaches?
    Changes coaches every year is not the answer, wanna be another nebraska or tennessee?

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  2. Coaching led to the letdown. Brian Kelly is 68-34 take a moment and let that sink in.... yeah that's not good enough for ND! I can only hope they fire him. I will not go to another game nor watch or support in anyway until he's gone.

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    1. Brian Kelly needs to be fired he has proven he cannot coach in division 1 football also they need a quarterback coach

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    2. Facts are we lost to 3 teams in the top 12 of college football, not bad after going 4-8 last year. Having said that, when are we going to start winning at least 2 of those 3 games? I think next years team will be good enough to win 10 games. He needs to go 10-2 with a New Years bowl win. Anything less and Swarbrick will be under fire.

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    3. Well ... we played three teams in the current Top 10 and went 1-2. Not a desirable outcome by any measure, but ... a result that all the top ND coaches since Ara have experienced. And yes ... it comes as part of a dramatic turnaround from last year.

      I think people are understandably tired of Kelly, but the Q remains ... what's the alternative?

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  3. U all sound like Peterson at Nebraska when he fired Solich after a 9-3 season, we need more!!!

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  4. So what do you all want, he wins nearly 70% of his games and has brought us back to being relevant again, relax and find something else to bitch about.
    were not getting urban meyer to coach here

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  5. And look at the high profile programs now searching for coaches ... We hastily fired WIllingham and got stuck with Weis and his inflated contract well after he left.

    Jimbo Fisher had an off-year at FSU, where he experienced a recurrent problem for Kelly - the unexpected loss of his starting QB (that's happened to Kelly 3 times!!!). So impatient FSU fans want him gone ... see how that works out. Kelly won't coach at ND forever, but you need to be smart about these things. It's still the players who have to perform on the field, and with execution, we could have won all three of our losses.

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    1. Couldn't agree more. I certainly wouldn't want to be a college coach anytime soon. If we win our bowl game, you'd be an absolute moron to complain about the football program after turning things around like we did.

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    2. And now that the Season is over, sans Bowls, we're 9-3 with a one-pt loss to the SEC champion and a blow-out win over the PAC champion. And we have road losses to the PAC runner-up and ACC runner-up. That's not a horrible Season, especially if we beat LSU to close it. Right now, Sagarin rates Notre Dame's strength of schedule as #2 amongst all Teams.

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  6. CTND, I think the essential difference is that we are all looking at the same body of evidence and coming to different conclusions about BK.Essentially, you are correct. BK is capable of giving us "not horrible seasons" but that is about it. I have literally zero confidence that BK can deliver ND a major bowl win, let alone a national championship.

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  7. BTS - okay, so what is the deficiency in his coaching that leads to your conclusion? I would say there are six major facets to successful college coaching. (1) Recruiting good athletes, (2) Assembling good coaches, (3) Developing your athletes physically and fundamentally, (4) the design of Offense and Defense, (5) game management, and (6) inspiring your athletes to perform.

    In which of these departments is he fundamentally deficient? And based upon what evidence? Because it seems to me that people who deride him do so based upon anecdotal game and Season results. All of the top coaches have had bad games and off Seasons.

    For Kelly - his off-seasons have principally been a function of having too weak of players, due to inheriting undeveloped players from Weis, injuries and suspensions and his having weak coaches, due to the mistaken acquisition and retention of Van Gorder. But having conceded that - he's shown an ability to recruit good players and hire good coaches. And he's had particularly bad luck with injuries and suspensions at the key position of QB, despite showing ability to recruit good QBs. He has fielded excellent Offensive Play and excellent Defensive Play, and so there is no demonstrable, inherent weakness there.

    The point is that a great season means putting these factors all together in one Season. We went 12-0 in 2012, and that was with a freshman QB. We over-achieved that Season, which led to being overmatched in the Champ game. But compare that to OSU's loss to Clemson last year, which was a worse loss with better talent.

    You seem to be concluding that he cannot put it all together in a Season. This is where I agree with you that we are looking at the same evidence and coming up with different conclusions. I don't see where you have the evidence to support that conclusion. I think he has shown sufficient success in all 6 categories I listed above to put together a great Season.

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  8. CTND,
    Evidence:
    a) I don't have the time or energy to waste to look up numbers, (Anyone want to dig this info up?) but check out Kelly's numbers on recruiting and retaining top defensive line players. I am pretty sure it's abysmal.

    b) Kelly's record in road games vs. top-ranked opponents or teams finishing in top 25, however you want to define "ranked". It's not a very good record.

    c) Quarterback development - Again, no numbers, but somehow or some way Kelly ruins quarterbacks. Coffee can say more about this.

    d) Killer instinct - Team has no killer instinct. I was pleasantly surprised against USC...I thought the killer instinct might be emerging, but, then "poof," it disappeared against Wake.

    I'm not saying fire him; I'm just resigned to 8-4 and 9-3 regular seasons.

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  9. 9-3 is clearly the peak right now. I'll give Kelly credit. The off-season changes he made were the right ones. But why did it take him so long to make them. We had a hunch that after 2014 and we were certain that after 2015, both Van Gorder and Longo were just not very good at their respective positions yet he waited until 2016 was an utter catastrophe of epic proportions before he made a move. He (and Notre Dame for that matter) seems to always be two steps behind in everything they do. Any success they have is NEVER sustained over consecutive seasons...That's a glaring indictment on BK. In answer to your facets/criteria that good/great coaches meet, I believe BK is not that good at 3, pretty bad at 6 (seeing as how when the lights are brightest, his teams are the least impressive), and dreadful at 5. See above for more reasons.

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  10. I have to say ... the most perplexing issue with Kelly is the QB play. Does he "ruin" QBs as BTS claims above? No doubt the perception exists, but is there really evidence to support it? One of the keystones to his success before coming to ND was identifying and developing QB talent at lesser tier schools, where he did not have the recruiting advantages of a first tier school. So reach the conclusion that he's bad with QBs, as opposed to good - you'd need to have evidence at ND that outweighs his prior success at the position. And what's that evidence precisely? Since BTS defers to Coffey on the subject ... I hereby volunteer to come on the show and debate Coffey on this point and Kelly generally. How's that for a show format? :)

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  11. If you're thinking of Tony Pike, I have bad news -- Brian Kelly didn't recruit him at Cincinnati, Mark Dantonio did, and the only reason he moved into the starting position was due to a non-descript guy breaking his ankle. I've looked at the stats of every QB who played for Kelly, and the only guy who Kelly recruited who ever was named a starter was Dan Lefevour, who did alright at CMU (for whatever that's worth). The only guys who started multiple seasons for him were Pike and Kent Smith, and neither improved drastically along the way. And let's not forget the final piece of the puzzle -- Jeff Quinn was Kelly's OC and QB coach for all those guys. He disappears, so does Kelly's alleged mojo.

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  12. "Bad news" you say, b/c Kelly did not recruit Tony Pike? Under Kelly, Pike led Cincy to a 12-0 Season, with wins over 2 Teams that beat ND and the vaunted little Jimmy Clausen. Pike was drafted to the NFL. Kelly did recruit Golson, who in his first year led Notre Dame to 12-0 Season, and was a bad call away from leading Notre Dame to 7-0 Season in 2014. Kelly got stuck with Tommy Rees, who repeatedly played above his ability. Kelly got stuck having to field Kizer as a back-up and nearly beat Clemson on the road - and Kizer left ND early, got drafted in 2nd round and starts in NFL his first year. You gloss over Dan Lefevour, who broke NCAA TD record and got drafted into NFL from CMU. You start throwing HC success by giving credit to their coaching staff ... good luck with that. Talk about ability to manipulate facts ... how about we throw out Kelly's defensive failures under Van Gorder while you're at it. Doesn't work that way for college HCs.

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  13. Yes, Kelly recruited Golson. Where's Golson now? How did he progress or improve? If you think Rees "played above his ability", we were watching two different teams. Kelly's failure with VanGorder was retaining him after two seasons where ND's defense was terrible. Everyone else knew VanGorder was not performing except the man responsible for hiring and retaining him.

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  14. Where is Golson now? Did you think he was NFL material? Golson went to FSU and but for a bad call, beat an NFL QB in a hostile environment.

    Some success and failures are on coaches and some on players and it can be difficult to parse that out from our couches. But let's take a pretty clear example. Goff was a high NFL draft choice and then considered a bust with Rams under Jeff Fisher. But a closer look at Fisher shows a weak record with QB performance, including the play of Nick Foles before Goff, and then he is replaced by Sean McVay, who is considered a QB guru and credited with the oddly strong play of Kirk Cousins. Sure enough, McVay turns around Goff and takes him from near bottom to near top.

    Now ... Kelly has had two QBs ultimately regress after some early success. One had an injury bug - Crist - and one had an academic bug - Golson. But both left Kelly and joined coaches with a history of success with QBs, Weis at KS and Fisher at FSU, and yet they both regressed even further. So does this evidence suggest it's on Kelly or the Player? You can try to argue that it's Kelly, but ... the evidence is less than convincing, especially when you combine it with his successes at the position.

    And I agree that Kelly is responsible for Van Gorder - my point was that the Head Coach gets the blame for bad coaches and the credit for good ones. You suggested that he be stripped of credit for QB successes that occurred when other coaches played a role in the success. You cannot have it both ways. That was my point.

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  15. Interesting arguments both ways gentlemen... yes we're all pondering differing conclusions over the same body of evidence (as ref'd earlier). CTND posted six (6) facets important to coaching, and I believe he nailed them quite well. But after suffering through BK's game-time performance and decision making, I believe his downfall not-so-much lies in whether he destroys QB's (tho I'll always believe he does destroy QB's raw talent), but rather in his bumbling game-time coaching decisions coupled with his complete failure to motivate players and instill a positive mental attitude going into those games. When you read Lou Holtz's book "Winning Every
    Day", those two coaching attributes literally ooze out of every page and onto your hands, and you immediately understand why Holtz is the FB legend he is. As Lou said, every football game is won or lost BEFORE kickoff. But when it comes to big games, BK seems to have no ability to win games before or during the game.

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  16. BLACK SWAN nails it. Kelly is average to good. He fails to deliver in the big game time and again.

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  17. "his bumbling game-time coaching decisions coupled with his complete failure to motivate players"

    You'd need to provide examples on that. I can recall numerous games where the team played with a lot of confidence and fire. USC this year - OK in 2012 (going on the road and beating a ranked team as a double digit underdog). FSU 2014 - going on the road in hostile environment and outplaying the 2nd ranked team with better talent in very hostile environment at night.

    Holtz was a good coach - no doubt. But Bill Walsh as a commentator used to get a little harsh with his coaching decisions, and so when Walsh took over Standford, there was a lot of chatter about how Holtz was going to get back at him, and then Walsh clearly out-coached him and beat him with inferior Stanford teams, including at South Bend. Now Walsh was an all-time great, but ...

    And Holtz made one of the all-time "bumbling game-time coaching decisions" (to use your words) that cost ND a National Championship, for inexplicably calling time-out against BC late in game in 1993, saving just enough game clock for BC to hit a game winning FG. (my brother and I watching 1000 miles apart both screamed at TV for that blunder - it was that obvious).

    Well - last time we played LSU, we beat them on an end of game drive, where Kelly successfully used the strengths of two QBs to win game. I get it ... Kelly just turns certain people off - but I've seen the energy in the locker rooms ... I don't know where you get that lack of motivating from.

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  18. Fair points. But "Energy in the locker room"? Several recent ND news articles quoted BK as saying "Brian Kelly said he addressed team Monday before Stanford: "It looked like they were in biology class … there was no juice, there was no excitement.” Prior he said "This team was built for November." Agree, Kelly turns people off: He also turns off his players. I don't recall Jerome Bettis ever looking like he was in cell biology class. If having 60+ ND Football players with a blank Biology Class look on their faces - just prior to the Stanford game - is "energy in the locker room", ND is in worse trouble than I thought. BK reflected: "I remember addressing the team before the Monday of the Stanford week with so much on the line and a 10th win and a New Year's six, and it looked like they were in biology class. They were staring at me like, Really? There was no juice, there was no excitement. And they were tired. They were tired mentally." I know, BK lovers will tell me ND is the only NCAA FB school that requires matriculated students to take exams. Stanford also had exams this year. ...So that's where I get the lack of motivation from - I believe Lou Holtz would have done a much better job motivating this team to get excited about prospect of a NY's six bowl.

    Yes, Holtz was not perfect: what coach is. Indeed, I also recall that horrendous BC game. That game disgusted me for probably decades. But the sickening memory of that game was heavily replaced by thee most sickening ND game I've seen in 40 years: the Brian Kelly-coached game at Met Life Stadium in NJ, ND vs. Navy. I sat up in nose bleed with my $11 half-cup of hot chili and $7 cup of coffee, and studied the pre-game work-out on the field. Midshipmen were flying around the field in drills as if they were preparing for the invasion of Normandy, while the ND players looked like a jet-lagged Van Gogh oil painting, doing toe touch stretches as if it took all their effort. Compared to ND, Navy looked like the NY Giants. [I just found a quote from a Weiss era Navy loss write-up which surprisingly mirrors the game I saw: “Goliath got arrogant. Did you see the way the Irish players took the field? Lemmings and lambs showed more excitement than the Notre Dame players did coming out of that tunnel Saturday.”] Indeed, Navy went on to shellac Kelly! That to me, was the most humiliating ND loss I ever witnessed. Walking back to the bus, it was the only time I deeply felt shamed to be a ND fan. So I chalk that game up to Kelly bumbling, not having his team ready to play. I'm sure you also witnessed the times the famed "Riverboat Gambler" Kelly would go for it on 4th down with the ball on like ND's own 31 yard line, early in the 2nd quarter.

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  19. Yes Kelly turns people off; he REALLY turned me off when he interviewed w/ Philly Eagles just days after the big loss in Miami. Lou had difficulties towards end of his ND tenure. I drove 12 hrs. to the 1996 Ohio St. v. ND game in S. Bend, which was NCAA's game of the week that October. ND played lousy, with the stadium full of sickening red OSU fans. Later on, Holtz specifically wrote about that game essentially taking credit for the loss, saying some sort of team disruption or discipline event occurred, but he kept details quiet. But Kelly is very skilled at laying dinosaur eggs on the field in big games; Holtz knew how to prepare his team for those games.

    Thus, I really tried to be a big BK fan over the last 8 years. I was even completely in Kelly's court when that female reporter stepped beyond her journalistic britches after the Georgia loss. An older ND fan I know ALWAYS told me he hated Kelly, ever since he saw BK screaming at the kids on the sidelines during games. I truly expected my friend to eventually lighten up on BK - he never did. And after this year, I understand why. And I now know that my older friend can read football coaches MUCH better than I can. He never thought for a minute that Kelly belongs at ND.

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